11: The Science of Procrastination: Why We Do It and How to Stop with Susie Castellanos Hansley
In this episode, we delve into the mental hurdle of procrastination and its relation to imposter syndrome. As a podcast focused on productivity and organization, we explore the root causes of procrastination and offer solutions to break the cycle, helping you to live your best life without repeating the same patterns. Join us as we uncover the secrets to overcoming procrastination and achieving your goals.
In this episode we talk about:
Susie Castellanos Hansley, PhD. is an Anxiety & Imposter Syndrome Coach, holds a Ph.D., is a Master Certified Coach, a Speaker & Educator and Trauma Informed.
Where to find Susie Castellanos Hansley online:
https://www.lifecoachsusie.com/
Mentioned in this Episode:
Link to procrastination freebie:
https://www.lifecoachsusie.com/the-procrastination-solution
The Organized & Productive podcast is brought to you by The Organized Flamingo and hosted by Stephanie Y. Deininger! For those of you who love the thought of organizing & being more productive, but don’t know where to start or constantly up against hurdles that don’t let you advance the way you want to, this podcast is for you!
Review full show notes and resources at https://theorganizedflamingo.com/podcast
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Review the Transcript:
Stephanie
Hello friends and welcome to another episode of the organized and productive Podcast. Today we are talking all about procrastinating. So I'm so glad that you did not put off listening to this episode, see what I did there? Okay, so how many times have you put something off that you actually wanted to do, but couldn't seem to get the motivation to do it. So like, this is the stuff that you actually want to do like goal setting big, audacious goals that you're excited about. But for some reason, you just keep putting it off. This is also those tasks that you know, are simple to get through. But for some reason, you just put them off and instead, go and do anything and everything except actually complete the task. And when you do notice that you're putting it off, you don't know what is holding you back, you can't quite put your finger on it, you know that there's something there that stopping you from doing the task? And do you have no idea what it is? Well, it may be something that you can work through and not as big of a deal as you think it is. So for our episode, today, we're digging even deeper into one of the mental hurdles that stops us from living our best life, which is the action of procrastination, what causes it and how it relates to imposter syndrome. And because this is a podcast devoted to helping you find organizing and productivity solutions, part of finding a solution is figuring out what caused the problem to begin with. So you don't repeat the same cycles over and over. So today we are focusing on procrastination, which is the root of a lot of the problems and what causes it. And because this is a subject matter that has to do with neuroscience, and more of the mental health sector, I wanted to invite a professional that studies this area. So I invited our guests Susie Kassianos, Hensley to come talk to us about procrastination and impostor syndrome, which is her area of expertise. As usual, we go right into the conversation with our guest. So let me introduce Suzy to you really quick and share why I wanted to bring her in. So Suzy has an anxiety impostor syndrome coach, she holds a PhD, is a master certified coach, a speaker and educator and trauma informed. I met Susie a couple of years ago through clubhouse and other social media platforms. And I absolutely loved how she would communicate about this very important subject matter in a simplified way that US commoners, could understand and relate to. I mean, her accolades are all very impressive. But what's really special about her is that she's gone through her own impostor syndrome journey. And the coaching she went through, was so impactful to her that she decided to become a coach, and then help other people like her. So not only did she have the background, but she also dug even deeper within her own self. And now she brings in the expertise of having gone through it. But then, of course, the educational background, she digs deep into the neuroscience and the nervous system to understand how anxiety, fear and stress responses occur biologically, and physiologically, so she gets it, she understands, like I said, the background, but she also has gone through it herself. And I don't know about you, but when we you talk about the mental health sector, sometimes it's really nice to know that someone that you're talking to gets it, and maybe has gone through their own journey, and can give you examples on how they were able to overcome whatever hurdle it was. So I love that she has a balance of both. And so I'm so excited about our conversation. So let's just get right into the conversation. This is pretty much where I start asking her the questions. No time wasted. And I really hope that you enjoy today's podcast episode. Welcome to the organized and productive podcast with organized Flamingo. I am your host, Stephanie, a professional organizer and productivity expert, ready to explore the right organizing and productivity solutions for you. Yeah, well then let's go. All right. Hello, Susie, welcome to our podcast. I'm so happy that you are here. I'm really excited about today's conversation. I did not want to put it off any longer. So I'm so excited. Alright, so let's get started with the concept of imposter syndrome. So we're, we're digging right in? What is impostor syndrome? What is it all about? And how is it related to procrastination?
Susie Castellanos Hansley
Awesome questions? Well, so thanks for inviting me. So imposter syndrome is what happens when somebody who is striving to achieve something that maybe is a little more challenging, they start to feel like they might not be good enough they might feel so there's going to be a pattern of thinking a pattern of emotions and a pattern of actions and an actions that they take. Oh, You might have thoughts like I'm not good enough to be here, I'm gonna get found out. I don't belong, I have to get it right the first time. The emotions that you end up feeling are anxiety, fear, panic and shame. And then a lot of the actions and inactions are going to be, it is going to have like an attitude of perfectionism because of that fear. So some of the actions that come out of perfectionism, or going to be procrastination, or overwork is typically what happens one or the other. Sometimes you go between them. And the other things that you do is because you're feeling all that anxiety, and because you feel shame, you don't tell people how you're feeling. So you kind of keep it hidden because you feel shame. And when it gets to be too much, you start to numb out your emotions, because it's just too stressful. So you might do food, alcohol, scrolling, etc. The one thing I wanted to say, though, that's interesting is that each of those thoughts and emotions and actions and inactions don't necessarily mean you have impostor syndrome. It's more when you cycle through it, and you keep doing it. Because what'll happen is that for a lot of us, say you get assigned something new, that can be a little bit challenging, you're gonna probably have some of that, but if at the end, you're like, oh, yeah, I did it. I figured it out. I was procrastinating and feeling anxious, and I was worried about it. But I got it done and I feel good, yay, then you don't have imposter syndrome. The imposter syndrome is when you're done with the thing and the whole time and you don't and you just feel shame, because you're like, Oh, I barely made it. I didn't get it. So. And that's really important. Because those thoughts and emotions and actions that I mentioned happen all the time when you have self doubt or anything like there's healthy self doubt and stuff, but it's when you when you don't ever feel like yay, proud of myself for figuring it out. And then you shame yourself that creates the imposter syndrome cycle.
Stephanie
super interested in I think a lot of us can relate to that where, you know, balancing what is the healthy emotions that come with that, that are associated to imposter syndrome are associated, but not directly linked? So what is a good way for someone to know? Okay, you mentioned that it's not always impostor syndrome, but like, at what point? Should they ask for help? Or what what point like? What are some of those symptoms that people should be looking out for? So that they don't keep repeating the circle? Like, at what point can? Should they say like, Okay, I need to stop even though I'm in it. How do they know,
Susie Castellanos Hansley
it's gonna have to do with how burned out and how anxious they're feeling? So so most of the time it is it is incredibly normal and healthy for us, as human beings and as animals to, you know, be worried that something may not go well, when it's kind of the first time you're doing it. Especially when it's something that matters to you, where you want to show up? Well, because it matters that you're part of the group, I don't know, it could be baking that cake for your family, you might be worried about it or doing that project at work, whatever that is, you're gonna know what's a problem if you are burning yourself out, either by avoiding it and then doing it the last minute and then beating yourself up. Or you're burning yourself out, because you're overworking and then you do it. And then you're still beating yourself up. And with
Stephanie
that, what are some of the common? When is it come up? Most commonly at work personal both? Like what are some of those common places where imposter syndrome shows up? And therefore, procrastination.
Susie Castellanos Hansley
So what's interesting is that it has come up in the popular culture and people talking about it, they talk about it more in terms of work situations where you feel like you don't belong, it is definitely something that is seen in minorities, women, things like that, where there's not like a lot of people like them, or like us since I happen to be a woman in a minority. But, but what it but the reality is that it's not limited to that, like it actually can come up with anyone, right? And what'll happen is that it will come up at work, if there's sort of this feeling of I need to prove myself. So it when there's a feeling of I need to prove myself, they're gonna find out I'm not really good enough, it's going to come up at work. And that's something that a lot of people talk about. But the reality is that what our brains do in one area of life, they do everywhere. And so what was very fascinating for me is that when I discovered my imposter syndrome, you know, I was thinking about it in terms of work. And then it turned out that i There were things that I wasn't saying or doing even in my marriage, I had a great marriage, love my husband, and then I realized I was acting like an imposter, even at home in certain ways. So where I was like not saying certain things, because I'm thinking, Oh, that will make me a bad wife, or that would make me a bad stepmother. Or that will you know, I mean, like that was still unconscious that it was showing up there too. So most people talk about it in work stuff, but you're gonna see it everywhere because we do the same thing everywhere with our brain. Oh, that's
Stephanie
so good. That's a great reminder. So let's circle back to procrastination which is kind of the main bigger theme here, you know, that we're talking about today. They're related but for procrastination coming back to it, okay, let's say you you think GRANT whether it is imposter syndrome or not, but you're still you're procrastinate, the action of procrastination is still happening. What are like you said it transfers from business to personal. So what are some ways that people can? What are some methods or ways that people can bite? procrastinate, procrastination, so that it doesn't become this bigger thing like impostor syndrome eventually, like, can they identify it before it becomes the bigger thing? Yeah. Well, I
Susie Castellanos Hansley
will tell you that procrastination can be one of the symptoms of impostor syndrome. And that that was, you know, for me, before I knew what imposter syndrome or anxiety were, I didn't really know that I had anxiety or that I experienced impostor syndrome till about 2021. But my whole life before that, when I was in academia, etc, I procrastinated a lot. And it was because I was feeling anxiety and impostor syndrome. So it can be part of that. But the main thing is going to be, you want to kind of just look to see, if you're shaming yourself, if you want to pay attention to your self talk and how you're feeling. If you're beating yourself up, and you're saying, See, I suck, oh, I should be able to clean the house, or I shouldn't be able to deal with those papers. Oh, no, I can't believe I haven't done my taxes, et cetera, et cetera, you know, I can't ask anybody for help on this, because they're gonna think there's something wrong with me, that's sort of where you start to recognize that it's becoming more of a problem. Because it's honestly the shaming of ourselves, for not doing those things that locks it in place, and makes it a problem. And that's important to know, because the one thing that I tell that is crucial for anyone who want to feel empowered in their lives, is you want to stop shaming it, in part, because the big thing is it keeps you stuck. But the big thing is that when you it doesn't allow you to recognize why we even have these tendencies, like why do we worry about not being good enough? Why do we have anxiety and fear? Why might we avoid something, and the reality is like, that's actually how we're designing things to evolution. So we beat ourselves up for something that is not within our conscious control. Because because our whole experience as animals evolutionary is that we are supposed to survive. And when you're a pack animal, if you get kicked out of the of the club, or the cave, or you know, a tribe, the tribe, you're gonna die like that literally would happen. So you know, the caveman ancestor horse, who, you know, didn't get along with people in his cave, if you got kicked out, he's gonna get eaten by the tiger. And same thing for the one that's out hunting, if he doesn't get along with everybody, they're gonna leave him behind. So we have things to hundreds of millions of years of evolution, we are designed to fear that we're not good enough, and we're going to get kicked out. And for us that, you know, having somebody tell us, we did something wrong to our primitive brain and to our nervous system, it's just the threatening as somebody putting a gun to your head, our nervous system cannot tell the difference. So when you understand that, there's no reason to be ashamed, it's just knowing like, Oh, it's my nervous system trying to protect me. And when you can drop that, then you can, then you can calm down, and then use your brain to figure out what you want to do. But it has to do with like, you want to really just get that it's not about you, you're not lazy, there's not something wrong with you. It's your nervous system. And it's evolution,
Stephanie
the mantras that you just meant, I feel like some of what you just said was like a mantra like these are, if you're listening to this, you know, write them maybe not mantras, but just reminders, like write them down and almost repeat them. This really comes into play with in the organizing and productivity space, when you're trying to better your life. And you feel like it's because I need a new journal, or I need to be more organized, or I can't remember anything, and I'm getting so frustrated. I must, you know, I must suck, I must. And then you start showing me like you said, and now it's this perpetual feeling that that has nothing to do with that. It's just your defense mechanism, your body telling you, you just have to find figure out a way that does work for you. With that in mind, since since I've seen that in the organizing productivity space, which is why we're having this conversation, like I hope that people understand that, that it can be very normal, very normal, and that with just a little help, not me just a little, maybe a big help, but with just a little push that it could be okay. So what would you tell people, if they're experiencing the shame, the perpetual shame, and they are putting things off? And so now it's becoming a problem because you know, figuratively and literally speaking, it's piling up, whether it's physical, mental, whatever, everything's piling up and you're just procrastinating and delaying the inevitable. What how would you say that somebody can go ask for help? Should they talk to somebody like how did they begin the process of making it better for making that better or
Susie Castellanos Hansley
Sure. So, at that point, if you're really pretty spiraling and shame and you're feeling stuck, you definitely want to talk to somebody because you when you're there, you're deaf, you're in fight flight and freeze. And procrastination is actually a freeze response. It's like, okay, I'm gonna hide and not do it, as opposed to overwork is more of a fight response. It's using the sympathetic nervous system, the energy to be like, Okay, I'm doing it, I'm doing, I'm doing I'm doing it, and then we click and we go, oh, no, no, I'm not gonna do it, I'm gonna hide. And that can happen, right? A deadline is great to put us into fight and get the thing done, the thing we've been avoiding the, what you want to think is, you know, it really depends where you're at, if you can hear what I am saying, now I can tell you how to do it. But if you're very stuck, you do want to get help, because it's very hard when you're stuck in fight, flight and freeze, to get yourself out without having somebody else there. Who can tell you no, really, it's not you, it's your nervous system. It's not you, what you're feeling is absolutely normal. And a lot of it for me, you know, I had trauma in my early childhood. And there was also, you know, just kind of like growing up in our society, there's always a lot of pressure to be successful, et cetera. So it's very easy for us to find ways to shame ourselves for not being smart enough, good enough making enough money, you know, all of that, right? So we are surrounded by that. And so much of that is being able to have somebody, so it could be a therapist, it could be somebody like me, as a coach, who understands what's happening with you, the first thing is to and shame it to be able to help you be witnessed and heard. And this isn't just like, nice, you know, kind of woowoo stuff, this is actually science, the way animals
Stephanie
not just not just your friend talking to like a for Hi,
Susie Castellanos Hansley
you know, because a lot of people are like, Oh, you have to find somebody. But the reality is like neuroscience, the way this works is like say when animals get triggered and freaked out, the way they create safety is they go back to the pack, and the pack invites them back in the pack, you know, somebody gives them a lick somebody, it's like that kind of thing. And the animal shakes it out. And as human beings a lot of the time, unlike other animals, we shame ourselves and we tell each other Oh, you should suck it up and stop crying or you know, you're being lazy or whatever. So it is super important. If you want to like interrupt that find somebody you can trust who can really hold space. So a lot of the time that is going to be a coach or a therapist, because a lot of times our friends can't help us. Our friends will try to say, Oh, don't be like that. Just change how you think or no, here just calendar better. That's what people are going to tell you when you procrastinate, oh, you just need more discipline. So what that does is it totally dis regards the fact that you are feeling and fight flight or freeze. And no animal can get out of that without another animal, helping them see that they're safe. And the only way to create safety is for you to tell yourself or if somebody else can tell you. You know what it makes sense that you feel this way? Of course it makes sense. You're not weird. It's totally makes sense. Of course, you're scared of this thing. It's a new project. Let's let you feel that. Because when you can feel the emotion, it will pass within 90 seconds. And it's then that when you can feel the emotion. And that passes through your system because it's cortisol and adrenaline, then you feel safe. And then you're like, Okay, now how do I want to solve this issue? But it's because we don't ever release that because we don't feel safe to just acknowledge, yeah, I'm feeling overwhelmed by this. And I feel like maybe I'm dumb. And then, you know, you want to be able to tell yourself or have somebody else tell you, you know what that makes sense that you feel that way? It's so normal. It's because you're human animal
Stephanie
that I love the way that you explain this. Okay, so let's talk we just talked about talking to a friend. And obviously, we just use that very loosely as an example of one thing that maybe you wouldn't want to necessarily do. And I don't want to push, like, do a big push of don't do this. Because hey, there sometimes you
Susie Castellanos Hansley
just have to know who the right people are. Like, if you if you know, like certain people will be like, Oh, why don't you know, that's not a big deal, just get over it. Or if they try to fix it for you. That's another thing. You don't want a friend that's trying to fix things for you. You want to find the friend or the person who could simply hold space. And what that means to hold space is to hear what you have to say. And I tried to fix it and I tried to tell you you're wrong or anything and who will just be understanding and be like, Yes, that makes perfect sense. I totally get it. So it takes a certain amount of emotional maturity to find people like that and that's why sometimes it's just easier to find a coach or a therapist. If you have somebody like that. latch on to that friend
Stephanie
And they also have to be willing to be that person for you, once they realize that that that is it. Okay, so we talked about, and again, like if you find that person great, but what are some other mistakes? Or what are some common mistakes that people make outside of latching on to the wrong wrong person, right? That when making when dealing with procrastination and impostor syndrome, like what are some of the mistakes, you see that just you see them perpetually happen, you're like, let me warn you about these things. A lot
Susie Castellanos Hansley
of it has to do with certain thoughts that trigger the fear, the anxiety, etc. Probably the worst thought that human beings have is that I have to do this, or I should do this or it needs to be done. Because think of how terrible that feels, and it feels very disempowering. It's also not even true. Because the reality is that there's nothing that you think you have to do or should do that has to or should be done. You think you need to pick up your kids from school? No, there's plenty of people who don't pick up their kids or feed them or even house them. There's plenty of people who don't pay their taxes. There's plenty of people who don't clean their house, there's plenty of people who don't even own a house. So you want to really question the the probably the one mistake is that we tell ourselves, we have to do it. And that triggers a lot of anxiety and fear. It's also not useful, because what happens is when you say I have to or I should you have no, it's like in order for you to be able to say yes to something, you have to know that you can say no. And when you can say no, then you can really choose Yes, I want to do this, I choose to do this, I get to do this, I choose to clean my cat boxes, even though I don't want to, because I want the outcomes of it. But I certainly don't have to, I could just let the poor cat to do that. And then they're going to do whatever they want. So that's kind of an important thing is to be able to stop telling yourself that you have to you need to you should, you must just know that there's always consequences to your choices. But when you can release that you have to that's where you get your power. And then you can decide if you really want to or not. And then if you decide that you want to like you're you're gonna choose to do it because you want the consequences of doing it versus if not, now you have your real wine that it will motivate you to do it. Because your real Why is like, I'm choosing to do the cat boxes, because I like how my house smells. It's so much better. And then my cats won't pee on my clothing that I left on the floor. Right? That's a strong why and I'm more likely to do it. Then I'm like, oh my god, I'm so filthy. I can't believe I'm disgusting. I shouldn't be doing this. I shouldn't be doing this. I'm not gonna do it. Because I'm shaming myself. And I'm gonna spiral.
Stephanie
Oh, my guest Yes. Yes to all of the above. And for all of you could see me. So we're recording this via zoom. And if you could see me, I'm just like, yes, yes, yes. Okay, so I know that the listeners are going to find that incredibly helpful. So thank you for giving that. So if so, as we start to kind of wrap up here. What are some tools or methods people can try right now if they feel like this is a problem? So I think we talked about a couple already, which you know, which was find the right person to talk to or about it, look for the signs, the warning signs, and or the that it's already happening, like Shamy, that you're in this perpetual circle, but what are some other methods tools that you would recommend to a listener that they could do and take take action on right now?
Susie Castellanos Hansley
Okay, so I do I offer this a lot like I actually have a freebie a free procrastination protocol, like how to break procrastination, I can give the link to people, but I'll briefly describe what that is. The key thing is, there's two steps to this. The first thing is that when you are triggered you, you want to stop the anxiety and the fear. So in order to do that, you have to have awareness that you are procrastinating or that you're spiraling. So you just want to begin to start having awareness of what that looks like. It's going to be again, some of those thoughts like oh my god, I'm afraid to get this wrong. If you're feeling anxiety, if you're avoiding the stuff, those are all going to be good signs. One of my signs is I'm really short with my husband, and then he starts pointing it out and then it's like, Oh, I must be avoiding something or I start eating. So the first thing is in order to be able to notice a name that it's happening you want to just get really good get you know beyond to yourself what are the signs that I know that I'm spiraling into this procrastination? So when you know that sign the thing is after you notice that you want to name it, why do you want to name it? You want to name it because that creates disassociation between yourself and the thing it takes you out of it you're now the observer you can be like, huh, I just realized that I am avoiding doing that thing by eating this or by doing that. I am avoiding that thing that is already going to drop your anxiety level a bit, because you just named it. And then the next thing, once you've noticed and named it, you want to create some release of the cortisol in there. Because that's what animals do when when, when they noticed they're there. They're safe, they're unsafe, they get all triggered, and they get cortisol and adrenaline, they freak out. But once they go to safety, they shake it off, you could literally shake it off, like you could literally just like kind of shake your body once you noticed it. There's a there's other methods that I teach that, you know, if you follow me, I can teach you all sorts of things. Some of it if you know, EFT, Emotional Freedom Technique, or tapping, that'll release it, you just tap your way through it and be like, Oh, I'm releasing this anxiety over that thing that I feel like I need to do. So once you've released that, then then you can start asking yourself the question, that first question is like, Do I even want to do this? Because it's not a shooter? I have to? Once you've decided yes or no, it's very useful to just ask yourself, why do I want to do it? And why don't I and then make a decision? And then if you decide you're Yes, then you're going to ask yourself the questions to get your brain answering smart things. And that's going to be what do I already know about this thing? And then you're gonna ask it again, what else do I already know about this thing? And what else do I already know about this thing? If you're thinking about Texas, for example, what else what I already know about taxes? What else do I know about it? What else do I know you're going to write them all down? If you've decided, yes, I want to do my taxes, I choose to do my taxes, your next step would be write down all the things you already know. And in the process of doing that, you're priming your brain to look for how smart you are, that creates safety. And then it will become obvious the next step, which is what's the next smallest step I can do. Now, that will take me five minutes to start working on that thing. Whatever your brain tells you, you go and do it. And then it's rinse and repeat. You keep consulting your brain, if you get triggered again, you notice the name it you tap, you do whatever. And that's all it is. It's like constantly you were just going to interrupt the anxiety, notice the name it and then ask your brain a smart question, decide and then do it.
Stephanie
I love that. And one of the things that has always attracted me about you and your methods is that you simplify it. And you have different ways of dealing with you know, depending on what it what it is that you're talking about. But you have different ways for people to work through it. And so if you haven't gotten to know Susie, you definitely want to because I mean, that's the entire podcast here, right? It's doing things differently, trying it differently, because there's always a way, there's always a way. And most importantly, there's always a way for you to make it better, like it has to work for you. And that's something that I've always loved about when you talk about, okay, let's simplify it, identify it, and then work through it in small bites. And not just over, not just oversimplify it, but actually, like simplify it for people. So it's easy to digest and do and understand which I really, I'm glad you
Susie Castellanos Hansley
feel that way because I do it. And that's the thing that this is all based in science, the things that haven't worked for you in the past haven't worked, because they don't take into account the nervous system. And once you take into account the nervous system, you're golden, because you will never be interrupted or stuck again, you will always know how to get out of it. And that's the promise I make. And that's what I help all my clients with. So I really love this work because I think it's gonna make a difference for so many people who have so much stress and, you know, they spiral into shame, and they blame this house. And it's just because they don't know that that's their brain and their nervous system is just trying to protect them when it tells them to hide, because it matters for us as animals to fit into the cave. And once you understand that, and you know, you learn how to you notice name it, interrupt it, so that your brain and your body knows there's not a real tiger at the door. It's just my taxes. Use your brain and figure out the best solution for you.
Stephanie
No more shaving no more. Save me. I love it. Okay. All right. So something we asked about with all of our guests is what is your favorite magazine to read? For either business and or pleasure and why? And of course, where can people reach you? Okay,
Susie Castellanos Hansley
so my favorite magazine is whatever crashing magazine happens to be at the newsstand when I'm gonna fly on a plane. So, you know, I used to love people, but it's a little too trashy now. Like, just you know, although I won't lie, I will read it on my Apple phone, you know, on the Apple app. So I tend to tend to read Vanity Fair articles. I will tend to read people if there's something good on the cover, and it's just in general, something that strikes my fancy about somebody that I like or something interesting to me. But, but I I used to have a subscription to Runner's World back when I used to run but I don't anymore. That helped answer the question.
Stephanie
Absolutely. It's whatever. Yeah. Whatever piques your interest. Okay, and where can people find you?
Susie Castellanos Hansley
You can find me at www dot Life Coach susie.com. And that's life coach. And then my name is S. U. S. I e.com. And love to connect with people on social media. You know, if we go to the website, you will see all my social media icons on the top right.
Stephanie
Oh, wonderful. Well, thank you so much as it was a pleasure having you here. I'm grateful that you were able to share your you know, your wisdom with us and some of your tactics and I hope that our listeners found it just as helpful. And thank you again for your time.
Susie Castellanos Hansley
Thank you for having me, Stephanie. Bye, everyone.
Stephanie
Thank you for listening to the organized and productive podcast with the organized Flamingo. If you enjoyed today's episode, I would love it if you'd leave a rating and review on your favorite podcast player. It helps with letting people know that we're here. For full show notes and resources head on over to the organized flamingo.com/podcast Have you organizing