60: Finding Common Ground: Dr. Jackie Black on Navigating Relationship Dynamics

This week we chat with Dr. Jackie Black as she shares valuable insights on navigating the challenges of living with a partner who may not share the same organizing and productivity journey. Throughout the episode, Dr. Black emphasizes the importance of understanding values, style, and temperament in relation to “stuff,” and the significance of open-hearted, respectful conversations to avoid judgment and limitations. Join us as we explore the intersection of relationships and organization, and gain valuable tools for creating harmony within our shared spaces.

In this episode we talk about:

  • Impact of Relationships on Organizing and Productivity
  • Influence of Outside “Stuff” in Relationships
  • Co-creating a home that reflects both individuals' preferences and comfort

About our guest:

  • Dr. Jackie partners with high achieving couples whose relationships are a mess, and they feel disconnected.
  • For the last 36 years, Dr. Jackie has helped more than a 1000 couples in 8 countries.
  • Through her guidance, once distant couples have rekindled their love and affection for each other and experience richer, deeper connections and romance. They express their love and caring more effortlessly, and they feel deeply loved and adored, again.
  • Dr. Jackie is also the internationally recognized go-to relationship professional for couples whose lives have been forever changed and all too often, devastated by living with life-threatening and chronic illness; and couples who are raising an ill child, a child with disabilities or a neurodiverse child.
  • Fun Fact: Dr. Jackie was named by Cosmo as one of their most beloved international love gurus.
  • She is the author of the Cracking the Code series of relationship-focused books.
  • There are four ways to partner with Dr. Jackie: The Connection Booster VIIP Day, 6-month Private Couple’s Coaching Program, 2-day Couple’s Virtual Renewal Experience, 75-minute Connection Breakthrough on Zoom: Closeness Amplified

How to connect with our guest:

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The Organized & Productive podcast is brought to you by The Organized Flamingo and hosted by Stephanie Y. Deininger! For those of you who love the thought of organizing & being more productive, but don’t know where to start or constantly up against hurdles that don’t let you advance the way you want to, this podcast is for you!

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Review the Transcript:

Stephanie Y. Deininger [00:00:00]:
Hey, listeners and friends of Organized and Productive, the podcast. Welcome to our next episode. This week, we've got a special guest, doctor Jackie Black. She is a relationship expert, a marriage educator, and board certified coach to couples, and she believes that she can make everyday feel like you're on your honeymoon. So why are we interviewing doctor Jackie Black on an organizing and productivity podcast, do you ask? Well, if you remember last year, we did something similar. But, basically, here on the podcast, we like to approach all the different angles that are related to organizing and productivity. Sometimes they're very straightforward and related to what perfect bin should you get for your closet. Sometimes it's about decluttering.

Stephanie Y. Deininger [00:00:48]:
Sometimes it's about family dynamics. Sometimes it's about what are the best digital tools that you should be using, what's hot, what's not, and all of our top tips. Right? But sometimes we talk about the emotional piece of it and also the relationship piece of it that gets affected when you are in your organizing and productivity journeys. And this one in particular has to do with living with someone else that may or may not be on the same journey as you are. Again, we try to do and touch this subject at least once a year so that you have the resources that can help you if that is part of what is happening. Maybe there's a disconnect. Maybe you feel like you're more tidy. Maybe you feel like you have been on this decluttering journey, but your partner has not.

Stephanie Y. Deininger [00:01:36]:
Or maybe you're on the other side of that where you're not ready to let go, but your partner is. This is especially true when you have life changes. They could be every anything from, new marriages and or divorces or death in the family. Maybe your children have moved to a different chapter in their life. So sometimes the partners may or may not be on the same space or same page, and that can contribute to not having a cohesive goal with your organizing journey. So that is why we invited doctor Jackie Black. I met her a couple of years ago through mutual friends on the interwebs. A very close friend of mine, she has a community of women who she supports, and she introduced me to her.

Stephanie Y. Deininger [00:02:23]:
And I just love the way that she discusses her the relationship piece of couples and partners. And so I thought she was a perfect person to come on and talk about this with all of us. So what she will be doing is so as you all know, we just get straight to the to the conversation. Right? So this is the introduction to who she is, and all of her information is over on the show notes. So if you want to follow along while you're listening and you wanna check her out and and just kind of see what she's all about, her information is in the show notes. We are basically just touching up up on some of how to approach a partner that may or may not be on the same journey with you in your organizing journey, some top tips that she has. And again, we do talk about both sides where you might be the person that is on an organized journey. Maybe you're minimalist and your partner is not, but we also talk about it when you're on the other side where your partner is that one person and you're not ready to engage in that.

Stephanie Y. Deininger [00:03:21]:
So there is no blame discussion here. We just talk about the dynamic and conversations that could be helpful to you with your spouse, your partner, or the person that you live with. So enjoy the episode. Here we go. Welcome to the Organized and productive podcast with The Organized flamingo. I am your host, Stephanie, a professional organizer and productivity expert. Ready to explore the right organizing and productivity solutions for you? Yeah? Well, then let's go. Hi, doctor Jackie.

Stephanie Y. Deininger [00:03:53]:
Thank you so much for joining us today. I'm so excited that you're here. As our audience knows, we get right into the nitty gritty of the conversation. Alright. So you work with relationships a lot and in people and couples and partners.

Dr. Jackie Black [00:04:09]:
Right.

Stephanie Y. Deininger [00:04:09]:
What is what is the relationship between stuff and ourselves and the relationship? Like, how does it all work together? Why are we talking about this, and why is it important?

Dr. Jackie Black [00:04:20]:
Right. Well, thank you so much for inviting me to be here and talk about this. This is very important because people's stuff is very important to The, or it's not important at all. It's so funny that it doesn't really there's no middle about this. So I wanna break it first into 3, buckets that I want people to consider, values, style, and temperament. And the reason I wanna talk about value, style, and temperament when it comes to stuff is that those things are pretty fixed. If you're a minimalist, you've been a minimalist as a kid, and you probably had all your underwear by colors in your drawer folded. Okay? And if you are a collector or you think about I worked for, a CEO of a multinational company, and he shared a little space between the 2 big offices.

Dr. Jackie Black [00:05:21]:
And you could see The side was Eric's side because the papers were all over and on the floor and was called the the Snoopy room or the Mickey Mouse room. I can't remember. And Berry's side of the that little space was neat as a pen. But the thing about the thing about Eric, and if you walked into his office, they had these gorgeous offices. He had stacks of paper all along the window lines. And the thing about these stacks of paper is if you came into the office if I came into the office and asked him a question about a deal, he went right to the top of the stack, the middle of the stack, the bot. He knew exactly where everything was. So I wanna talk about value style and temperament, and I wanna talk about nondjudgment of your partner.

Dr. Jackie Black [00:06:14]:
Like, no judging, no blaming, no inaccurate attributions because those of us who are minimalists and ultra, ultra neat, I just wanna own The. We could easily make attributions about messy, lazy, mindless. Oh, The right. I won't go on. You you you all know who you are out there, and you know the judgments that you make. When you're in a relationship, you can't do that. First of all, it's not accurate because we go back to talking about value, style, and temperament and the way people live in space. And it's not gonna change too much.

Dr. Jackie Black [00:07:01]:
There are ways, and we could talk about that in in a minute, there are ways that you can ask for changes around certain things. But pretty much, you really wanna understand how people live in space and decide for yourself if you're dating if that works for you, that's a fit for you. If you're married and you've been married for a long time and this is a bone of contention, are there stress or strife or upset or arguing or worse around it? I hope that you'll get some insight from this conversation so you could take a step back, take a deep breath, and relax, and really do some soul searching so that you could come up with some things that are really important to you because people are different. And when we focus on the differences, we miss the stuff that is aligned, and we miss the stuff, the uniqueness The we love so much, that yumminess that that caused us to fall in love with each other in the beginning.

Stephanie Y. Deininger [00:08:08]:
How permanent are these attributes? Or how is it that do you come in in a to a relationship? Do you see this often where people's values, style, and temperament are pretty are pretty set, and you shouldn't need or want to change them? Is that how permanent or not or moldable are those attributes?

Dr. Jackie Black [00:08:28]:
Not very. As we get older, sometimes our values shift or we The drops off and another one becomes important. But they they are pretty static, and we must not expect people to change. But we just can't expect people to change.

Stephanie Y. Deininger [00:08:47]:
Yeah. And I we a lot too, with bringing other people's stuff into your area, and now it's become yours, whether it's from a loved one that passed. So how does that how do outside influences, in this case, outside stuff that maybe you did not start off with as a relation in the relationship. How does that affect what you're talking about? I'm

Dr. Jackie Black [00:09:09]:
just gonna say 2 things about that. I had clients, who were middle aged, and they got married. And he had 2 the way she tells it, he had 2 white plastic chairs. They were leather. They weren't a fine leather. They were white. The swiveled, had high backs and arms. She hated The, and she used to talk about them as plastic chairs, which, I invited her to really think about stopping because it it was so unkind and so hurtful.

Dr. Jackie Black [00:09:45]:
And he knew that she hated them. He loved them. He had his orange juice in them in the morning and watched the weather. He read the paper. He read books on the weekends. He put his feet up. There was an element. He loved them.

Dr. Jackie Black [00:09:58]:
They were his chairs. He'd had them for a while. So they when they sat down after they worked with me for a while, they sat down together, and they came to a point where they agreed that they really wanted each other to show up in the home. Right? They wanted their home to be reflective of both of them. That took a lot of work, a lot of emotional intelligence. And so that they made this agreement, and I invite all my couples that are going through this to do The, Make an agreement that if you don't both love it, you won't buy buy it. If you come with it, get massively curious. What is it about it? Tell me where you bought it.

Dr. Jackie Black [00:10:50]:
What was the what's the story? Get people's story because you really love the person. And you might hate the chair, but there might be such a sweet story behind the chair. Or in this case, there was so much of him when he was down, right, when he was relaxing, that made him very emotionally available to her when he was sitting in these chairs. And so she was able to then take another another look at the chairs. The funny end of the story is that when they actually moved into their home, all this was happening when they were in our separate spaces. When they moved into their home, he said to her when they were talking about moving and the moving trucks coming, he said, I've decided that I'm not gonna bring the the white chairs with me. And she, again, stayed massively curious. She didn't cheer.

Dr. Jackie Black [00:11:43]:
She didn't wasn't relieved. She said, what changed your mind? Tell me what what happened for you. And that just deepens our connection when we can sort of bypass this stuff and go deeper. I have clients, and her mother recently passed away, And she inherited big chests and an armoire and a mirror that sits on the floor and all of that. So it all came over, got stuffed into their little condo, then it was moved to the garage, but that wasn't good because she was afraid it would be damaged. And I suggested that they really sit down, that they look at the furniture, and they decide it tells stories that the the the woman whose mother passed away, told stories about the furniture and what it meant to her and how she wanted to use it. Nobody had ever thought about how they wanted to use it. You You know, how do we wanna incorporate it into our lives, into our stuff? And it turned out that she didn't wanna get rid of it, and she didn't wanna use it either.

Dr. Jackie Black [00:13:02]:
She was still in the place where she wanted to have it and honor her mother, but she really didn't want to take their chest in their bedroom out and then replace it with the mother's chest. Right, when that became a question. Well, what about would that would that feel good to use it in that way? And she said, no. We bought our bedroom for so do you see what happened? So when people are actually talking about what's going on inside, what's going on emotionally, and you take it off the plane of looking at the chair or the chest, there are so many possibilities, and that's one of the takeaways that I want people to have from this conversation The it's not about The stuff. It's deeper, and it's about this stuff, but you can get beyond it, when you really focus on the person and the story and the meaningfulness of The stuff.

Stephanie Y. Deininger [00:14:00]:
Oh, I love that. So if that is happening now on the other side of the partner, you know, that maybe is observing that their other half is is going through something. What would be some curious, tender, phrases or questions that you would suggest. Of course, people can always reach out to you and, you know, in in your community, in your space, you have an abundance of of phrases that you offer people to use in The relationships. But for this particular when they want to start addressing it with someone where whether it's because they feel like they have too much stuff, they're becoming just it's a it's just too much for the other partner. What would be some tips or phrases that you would suggest that they could use to start approaching the conversation?

Dr. Jackie Black [00:14:50]:
Such an important question. So, I have a client who's a minimalist married to, of course, a collector. And, not bad, not on the floor, but papers in his office on his credenza, on his desk, you know, things laid up against the wall, that and of thing. And so the way that she approached him was she said, I'd like to talk to you, not not I'd like to talk to you. I'd like to talk to you about always tell your partner what it is you wanna talk to them about. I wanna talk to you about what what I consider own it, Imessage feedback. What I consider a lot of stuff stacked in your office. And I I can already tell what I'm just talking to you about wanting to talk to you.

Dr. Jackie Black [00:15:40]:
I can feel my my mouth doing stuff and my eyes rolling. And I want you to know that I'm really trying because I wanna have the most respectful, warm hearted, vulnerable conversation we can have, and it's pretty charged for me. And I'd like to do this let let's know that we're gonna probably have 2 or 3 conversation to be, and you let me know when you're available. Let's I take you know, you come in with your calendar. When can we set the first conversation? That lets the person know. So you're already coming in vulnerable. You're asking for vulnerability, but you're being vulnerable. You're owning that it's a big deal to you.

Dr. Jackie Black [00:16:29]:
You're owning your bias and the difficulty that you're and, I'm still doing that just thinking about, you know, paper stack. But and you wanna own that there are some judgments, but you're you're not gonna voice them. You're you're handling it. You're managing it. That's what adults do. Right? And you're inviting a conversation. So what happened with this couple after a number of conversations, what he kept saying is, I I'm I'm not clear. This is my office, and and I really wanna understand what your need is around my office.

Dr. Jackie Black [00:17:11]:
You know? And he'd say, I don't have papers on the kitchen table. I I don't have I don't have stuff stacked or strewn around our bedroom. And I'm really curious, and and I don't understand. So she said, that is really a good question. And you know what? I'm not sure. Let me let me take some time and think about it and do my own work around it, and then I'll come back to you. And she was so great. And what she realized was that when he was in the office, she didn't mind seeing The stuff because he was there, and it was all part of her experience with him.

Dr. Jackie Black [00:17:55]:
But when he took business trips and he was gone for a day or 2 or 5, then it was overwhelming for her. She had no idea that that was the case until he really pushed back a little, asked her for more information about her, and he could easily agree to The. And he never left stuff out on his bed. He said, I'm gonna need help. I I'm gonna need to know, is it okay if these 5 binders are here standing up? You know, what what how do you really want it to look when I'm not here? He was so generous, so gracious. And so together, over a period of a couple of days, they figured that out before his next trip.

Stephanie Y. Deininger [00:18:39]:
When it comes to those types of scenarios where it takes some time you know, let's one partner addresses the question and makes them twitch a little, and then there's a reply and then the back and forth. You know, how just for our listeners, just to have an and, how long do these types of things sometimes take? Like, what would is there is there a terminal like, is there a date range where you're you would suggest, like, that might be a little longer, so let's get a pre a professional involved. Like, how how many back and forths of these of what you just described would you say is

Dr. Jackie Black [00:19:17]:
Right? Formal. Not formal. Yeah. After the well, it's all negotiated because what's normal for me might not be normal for you. So it's all negotiated. So, in this case, she knew that she needed to have a change before his next business trip. In other cases, you can say, I'd like to put a time limit on this. I'd like some resolution sooner than later.

Dr. Jackie Black [00:19:48]:
What makes sense to you? What makes sense to me is a week, 2 weeks, 14 days. I I really need to have some understanding in the next day or so, and then we can execute on it. See, it it really depends on what the need is. And when you start the conversation from a very openhearted, vulnerable, respectful place, and you're not gonna judge, you're not gonna criticize, you're not gonna make demands, you're not gonna make inaccurate attributions, then all of a sudden, there are so many alternatives and options that open up. When you come already upset, then you're limited, severely limited. And your partner feels judged and not good enough or shamed, and nothing comes nothing can grow. Nothing can open up and shift in that kind of energy. Does that make sense?

Stephanie Y. Deininger [00:20:47]:
It does. Absolutely. If a listener is not ready to address it yet with their with their spouse and whatnot, What are some tips that you would have for them? Now we have spouses and we have partners and people that are from both ends. The one that has the spouse that is different and the ones that know that they are the and that they've been addressed on, you know, and for whatever reason. So what are some suggestions that you would have for both types of parties that they know that the stuff in their space is creating something, a something The is clashing. What would be some some steps for them to take?

Dr. Jackie Black [00:21:27]:
I would start with a deep dive personally and do some personal reflection. What does my stuff mean to me? And walk around your house and tell yourself stories about your stuff. How does it make me feel? What are my values? What's my style? How do I show up in the world? How do I show up in the relationship? How am I living in space? How is my partner living in space that is different? So start personal reflection and temperament. Temperamental differences, always come up. We think about that as people being a morning person or a night person, or I can never be with anybody who needed to have 5 cups of coffee before they could talk. I open my eyes and my mouth at the same time, and I throw open the blinds. I love the sun. So temperamental differences come into play as well.

Dr. Jackie Black [00:22:28]:
After you do a deep dive, then think about what your best case is. You know, wave a magic wand and do some writing or some journaling or some notes on your computer. If I could make wave a magic wand, what are all the things around this topic that I would want to change, and what changes what I want to have? So that you're arming yourself with personal knowledge because we have personal knowledge and partner knowledge. My personal knowledge becomes my partner my partner's knowledge. So the more I know about myself and understand about myself, the more I can help my partner understand me. We cannot choose I mean, you can, but it it it doesn't work. So we don't want to I'll say it that way. We don't wanna die on every hill.

Dr. Jackie Black [00:23:22]:
Right? We have hills we have we wanna die on, but not not every hill. So I'll tell you a cute story. Mark and I had moved into our condo, and we were there a couple of weeks. And The morning, he usually would get up, get dressed, and leave and go into his office first. And then so but I had an early client or something, and I came back to the bedroom for something, and he made the bed. And it was a mess. So 2 things happened. 1, the first thing that and, I I listen.

Dr. Jackie Black [00:23:57]:
I'm not happy to say this. The first thing that happened was I bristled. Right? I was like, oh my god. The second thing was that I was filled with the love and appreciation and yumminess because it was so thoughtful, and we never had a conversation about making the bed. I always make the bed. He used to say that if he get out of the bed to go to the bathroom, when he came back, the bed would be made. I didn't wanna shame him. I didn't wanna hurt his feelings, so I didn't wanna fix it in case he recognized that it was fixed.

Dr. Jackie Black [00:24:33]:
So I let 2 days go by, and I said to him, I'd love to talk to you. Oh, I I said to him immediately as I left the bedroom. Oh my god. That was so sweet. I just love you so much for do and he was beaming. He was so excited, and I didn't wanna ruin that. That was so special. So 2 days later, I said, I wanna talk about making the bed.

Dr. Jackie Black [00:24:58]:
And he said, okay. And he said, you're you you're really gonna want me to do that more often. Right? I said, look. I love that you did that. It made my day and the next day. I feel so seen and so valued, so taken care of in so many ways. Here's what I would love. I would love it if you never made the bet again.

Dr. Jackie Black [00:25:20]:
And he laughed, and I laughed. And he said, I I know it was lopsided, and I couldn't get it. Blah blah blah. So we don't wanna shame our partners. We wanna value them and appreciate them, and then we really want to ask for what we want. And and and he never did. He never made the bet again, which was fine with me. It's my thing having the room look the way it looks, having the bed look the way it looks.

Dr. Jackie Black [00:25:50]:
So I'm not gonna hassle and harangue him to do it my way. I'm simply gonna do it. And this is such a big point. When when couples talk about you don't help, I want you to unload the dishwasher this way, I want you to do this or that that way. If our partners are contributing and they're participating, then it's the contribution and the participation. It's the effort. It's It's the interest. It's the actual action that we love and value that means so much.

Dr. Jackie Black [00:26:25]:
If we don't like the way we're doing they're doing it. We can't ask them to do it differently. They are bringing their way. And if the thing that you want done, me, the bed made, is more important than them making it and contributing in that way, then we have to own that. So so the question is, is this my problem? Is this your problem? Is this our problem? There are many things that Mark did that were so sweet and so lovely that I didn't have that energy around that I had around with that. And I loved that it was a reflection of who he was and how he moved in the world and in his life.

Stephanie Y. Deininger [00:27:14]:
What I love about what what you've said and the examples that you've placed is that it's almost the, like, the don't let the stuff get in the way of the conversations, which, you know, stuff ends up being that visual of what's probably behind the scenes of whatever you need to communicate. But what I love just of all this is that you're really showcasing that that curiosity to get a little bit more curious. Yeah.

Dr. Jackie Black [00:27:50]:
So Yeah.

Stephanie Y. Deininger [00:27:51]:
That's been really fun to to listen in on. What would, okay. So we, at the end of our, you know, the podcast and whatnot is because we could go on and on. I'm just right here just listening to her. Just give me all the give me all the tips. Just the tips, but the things to think about. So I hope all our listeners are are feeling the same way. Alright.

Stephanie Y. Deininger [00:28:13]:
So before we start to unwind with our conversation, we always like to ask our guests 3 questions. The first question is what would you like people to to take away from this conversation? With the second being, if there is something that you really enjoy, is there a magazine or a blog or something, a periodical The you really enjoy reading? We'd love to hear what you what you like to read, what you like to, what you're into, and then, of course, where people can reach you and find you.

Dr. Jackie Black [00:28:41]:
So the takeaway. I want people to focus on each other as honeys, as sweethearts, as partners and cohorts, as teammates, and to make that the centerpiece of all the conversations and to really trust that they will come to a place of agreement. Win win win. I win. You win. We win. And if all those things are not in place after any conversation, you're not finished, and you may need to have another conversation. I win you win, we win.

Dr. Jackie Black [00:29:20]:
And when you're talking about living in your home that you want both of you, you both wanna be committed to cocreating a space that you both love, that reflects both of you, and that you're both comfortable in. The magazine, the first thing that came to my mind Mhmm. Going up in Chicago and living in the desert for many, many, many years and now living in the tropics is Southern Magazine. Southern Living, I think it's called. I I just love the colors and the I I it's just a way of showing up and being in the world that I love. So that would be that would be my magazine.

Stephanie Y. Deininger [00:30:02]:
You know, funny you say that about what this actually goes with our conversation. I think, Southern Flamingo and The that style also has a lot of history and a lot of that connection with other people that many times comes from relationships. But it just has that intertwined relationships, You know? Anyway, it's a conversation starter as well. So I can see why that's that I I could see why you would feel connected to The that magazine. Okay. Alright. Well, where can people find you? Because there's way more of this that she has on her in her community and all her social media and all her different platforms. You should connect with doctor Jackie.

Stephanie Y. Deininger [00:30:42]:
So where can people find you?

Dr. Jackie Black [00:30:43]:
The website is the first obvious place, and that's doctorjackieblack.com.dr jackieblack.com. That would be in the first place. And then there are buttons throughout the website about let's talk. Let's connect. Yes. I want this. And and and I I really want to talk. I love to talk, and I love to talk to people about their relationships.

Dr. Jackie Black [00:31:08]:
And I don't enroll anybody in anything unless we have a conversation first. It's Zoom so that we can see each other. It's a little like being in my I call it being in my Zoom office. Yes. So click on that button. Go to my online calendar. And if there isn't a time on the calendar, then email me. [email protected].

Dr. Jackie Black [00:31:30]:
Let me know that you wanna have a conversation, and there's no times on the calendar. We'll just take it off the calendar and exchange a few emails and find the time.

Stephanie Y. Deininger [00:31:39]:
Oh, the personalization that you have is really nice, by the way.

Dr. Jackie Black [00:31:44]:
Oh, thank you. And and I I don't charge for that. And it's I say it's 30 minutes. I'm so bad about time because if I'm engaged in a conversation with you Yeah. And and I really wanna help you or understand more, The it takes whatever it takes. That would be the second thing. There's website, email me. Oh, Instagram.

Dr. Jackie Black [00:32:07]:
You know, I don't love social media. I probably shouldn't say The, but I love my Instagram, and I didn't have an Instagram until I was active with Clubhouse. And Instagram really is the place that has the best of the best. It's highly curated. Every single thing, that that I say is a quote from my intellectual property. So it really gives you a sense of how I talk and what I think. And so my my Instagram, and that that is at doctor Jackie Black.

Stephanie Y. Deininger [00:32:41]:
Oh, wonderful. Okay. Well, you know where to reach her. Doctor Jackie, thank you so much for your time. This was enlightening and so lovely. And, again, we could have gone on forever and ever. So don't be

Dr. Jackie Black [00:32:53]:
surprised. Such a pleasure. Thank you so much.

Stephanie Y. Deininger [00:32:57]:
Thank you for listening to the Organized and productive podcast with The Organized flamingo. If you enjoyed today's episode, I would love it if you'd leave a rating and review on your favorite podcast player. It helps with letting people know that we're here. For full show notes and resources, head on over to the organized flamingo.com/podcast. Happy organizing.

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